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    « Flogometer for Ryan—would you turn the page? | Main | Flogometer for Liz—would you turn the page? »

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    Comments

    Greg

    Thanks, Ray. Comments greatly appreciated, as always.

    This sounds a little like Brad and Diane's middle-of-the-night discussion, doesn't it? "Why did you do it?!" (smack)

    Von

    >> I think this poor page is suffering from too much microanalysis.

    Well, microanalysis is the point, but this absolutely jumped out at me, and, it seems, other readers... with their comments on 'not likeable'.

    If this first page isn't trying to set up an extra-marital affair (even if they don't sleep together) than what on earth IS it trying to do?? It seems to have no other purpose, no other hook. Why should we care about these two meeting if they AREN'T going to sleep together? Are they going to design plans for a new nuculear attack submarine? Lead an underground against an alien invasion?

    Sorry, I don't get it.

    John

    I can't speak for Ray, but I interpret his comment regarding "a little more in terms of action beats" as meaning more developed, not more in quantity. As I said, these come across as brief dialogue attributions.

    Sometimes less is more. If you give readers a chance, they can visualize conversational mannerisms by how the dialogue itself is written.

    But as you say, this is all subjective. I like a writer who leaves enough space for me to fill in the blanks. This is what keeps me involved.

    Jami G.

    Hi Greg,

    Sometimes - because *we*, as the writer, know the story - what we think we put on the page is different than what actually appears to readers. There's no attack or defensiveness about it (not saying you were getting defensive, just making my point). That's just the way it is.

    So, as a writer, you can look at your work and either say, 'Huh, that's not what I meant but I guess it's okay.' (and leave it). Or say, "Crap, that's not what I meant at all. I guess I'd better change something to make my meaning more clear.'

    Only you can decide if this is a problem for your story or not. However, I think it is a non-arguable point that whether the story *is* about adultery or not, the way it currently reads makes the reader assume that it is. Not one commenter here has indicated that they read it any other way.

    So, just as much as any piece of writing is about creating an emotion in the reader, it all depends on what you want to create. If the emotional baggage of adultery isn't it, then this needs to be changed. If you're fine with it, then don't worry about it. :)

    Hope that helps!

    Jan

    Clean writing, a confident, light voice and initially natural dialogue intrigued me. Unfortunately, I wouldn't have turned.

    My first problem - a minor nit - is that I didn't know whose POV I was in until the sixth sentence.

    The bigger issue is with set-up, because with the body language cues I've been given, this is what I understand of the story:

    Brad's the MC, and his scene goal is to have a beer and dinner. Implied in his defensiveness about his wife and his knee wobble about another woman is a larger goal: to remain faithful. (You'll note this is a passive goal.)

    His antagonist appears to be his friend, who by choking on his beer, seems shocked that his big surprise has been ruined. The word "impish" and dialogue about forgetting his wife implies Mike knows Brad will have a sexual reaction to Diane.

    Unless this story is about Brad being tested and reinvigorating his marriage, it's unlikely this would sell as a romance. If you want it to be a romance, the first woman who appears in the story, even to the point of being mentioned, is conventionally the love interest for the book.

    If its meant to be men's fiction, a la Nick Hornby, then the story itself will work, but I'd recommend being very careful to set up your MC with a positive external goal. At present, he appears reactive and weak.

    Hope that gives you some ideas of where *this* reader is confused by what you're trying to do.

    Now Doug, LOL, I don't mean to call you out, but if you want to try some well-written romance - and believe me, there's a good quantity - contact me and I'd be happy to give you some titles.

    Greg

    Jami and Jan, thanks so much for the responses. Jami, point conceded.

    Perhaps a little backstory to the story is in order. The character of Mike is loosely based upon a friend of mine --- someone I’ve known very well for more than 50 years. When I have spoken of him to others, the response I’ve received has been almost universally the same, “Wow, I don’t have any friends like that.”

    Mike’s “impish grin” is exactly what my friend would do, but because Mike is not the PoV character, we can’t know that, at least not yet (as Ray noted). Further, Mike’s statement about Brad “forgetting” to bring his wife is completely in context, given the nature of the characters. This is as much (maybe more) a story about Brad and Mike as it is about Brad and Diane. And this goes to something Doug said about writing not being about “capturing real life” because we have real life. But the fact is, this is a view of “real life” that, from what people have told me, they’ve never seen.

    What, in the final analysis, takes place between Brad and Diane is almost irrelevant.

    The problem is, all of that can’t be explained in 16 lines. So, what I hoped to achieve was to give the reader enough to ask “Why?” and turn the page to find out. It’s kind of interesting; it seemed to work on Ray, but not anyone else. Not sure why.

    Christine H

    I voted no because I just didn't feel pulled into the scene. This is all subjective, of course. It just didn't interest me enough.

    In terms of the extramarital dating, I see Mike as the problem, not Brad, since he initiated it. But if Brad takes the bait, as you seem to be implying in your comments that he will, that makes him seem untrustworthy as a main character. I know that a lot of people today think that if you are unhappy it is totally acceptable to play the field and look for someone better, but I personally disagree so that turned me off.

    One other nitpicky thing: I have read old stories (circa 1930's and 40's) with brands in them that I didn't recognize. So I am hesitant, myself, to use brand names in my writing without identifying the product in a general fashion. You do make it clear that Corona is a beer, which is good. But I think that I would also add something to indicate that it is a cheap Mexican beer, particularly since Mike is asking if it's okay, implying that it is lesser quality. But that's just my peeve and others may disagree.

    Christine H

    Somehow, the other part of my comment got erased. I also wanted to say that there is a timeline issue for me in that if it's been 32 years since Brad has seen Diane, and his knees are wobbling, then he had to have been sexually mature (say, 18) when he last saw her. So he's got to be at least 50 in this scene. And the dialogue and action seems more like college kids. Especially the "much grass" which I assume is a bastardization of "mucho gracias."

    Oh, and when Mike says "...and you know her." I thought he meant "and you know Carol..." in the sense of "she can't help inviting stray people over." So the next line sort of stopped me and I had to re-evaluate. Just FYI.

    Greg

    Christine, thanks for the input. You raise an interesting point. Specifically, “Where we stand depends on where we sit.”

    I’ve used the phrase, “Much grass,” nearly every day of my life. I’m 60 and was born and raised in southern California. The phrase is ubiquitous here, and has been since dirt was young. Corona beer? It’s very popular in SOCAL, where the story takes place (San Jacinto Valley).

    I suppose it’s a little like stories we see here that come from writers in South Africa, Australia or Great Britain; there is some regionalism to it. If you’re from Boston and have never been outside of New England, well, c’est la vie.

    Jan

    Greg, if it's any comfort, I struggle with set-up too. I have a voice people say they enjoy, but tend to start at the wrong place; they understand a different story question than I hoped to pose, and can feel betrayed a few pages in.

    If the conflict is between the men, and Diane is the symbol of their conflict, this scene would not take much at all to work. A wee bit of internal dialogue on Brad's part when he's being manipulated, and I would understand what your story's about. It would also create sympathy for your MC.

    If Diane is not even an issue, then perhaps you're just starting too early. Either way, keep at it. You have an engaging voice which counts for a lot.

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