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    « Flogometer for Ryan—would you turn the page? | Main | Flogometer for Liz—would you turn the page? »

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    Comments

    Jean

    I'm not sure what genre this story is or where this situation is going, but the prospect of reading about Mike and his wife intentionally setting Brad up with someone when Brad was still married (happily or not) wasn't for me. That doesn't feel realistic, as something a friend would openly do. Also, while it does bring tension to the situation, it doesn't make either character very sympathetic. Maybe if Brad questioned Mike's intent, it would help clarify the situation and their characters.

    Greg

    Ray, I like your suggestions on the action beats and internal monologue – just the ticket. Thanks.

    Jean, the subject matter was bound to be controversial, but there’s more to the story. Perhaps one of Carol’s lines from a bit later on will help, “Well, it’s not every day that Mike and I get to have two published novelists over for dinner.”

    The purpose of the first page was to raise the question – Why? – and hopefully entice the reader to turn the page and find out.

    Genre? Contemporary romance, for the lack of a better pigeonhole.

    Liz P

    No.

    The subject matter made me dislike the MC immediately, and his friends. (since the situation he's in is not really honorable at all)

    Then, whether or not he gets set up with another woman is really not that interesting to me. Why should I care? If you understand what I mean.

    And lastly, in 16 lines you've used profanity 4 or 5 times. It's not like someone is dying and they're frantic, but in the course of normal conversation....that turns me off as well.

    Doug

    I voted 'no', but mainly that's because I'm not a reader of romance. One of the big reasons I'm not a reader of romance is that I don't appreciate the usual writing style, which strikes me as artless story-telling with a lot of fluff thrown in.

    The beginning here doesn't start off with a bang, but it does start off with some beautiful work at scene-setting without relying on narrative. There's no question that the scene is taking place in Mike's home, and that Mike and Brad are long-time buddies, and we get that all from just a few lines of dialogue and a couple of action beats. Slick.

    But then the dialogue just goes limp for a while, not providing any value except taking up space.

    Nathan Bransford posted about that yesterday:
    "Writing isn't about capturing real life as it actually happens. We have, well, real life for that."
    (http://blog.nathanbransford.com/2010/07/undercooking-novel.html)

    Anne Mini posted about it today:
    "conversational redundancy tends to make one reach for something else — a scissors, to cut the repetitive (and thus predictable) dialogue right out of the book. Of course, Millicent the agency screener and Mehitabel the veteran contest judge don’t need to slice and dice dull dialogue literally; all they have to do is reject or disqualify it."
    (http://www.annemini.com/?p=10944)

    Toward the end of the page we return to advancing the story, and I agree with Ray's comments on the adjustments to increase the tension.

    For me, the “I didn’t forget to bring my wife, you moron, Paula had to work” didn't sound like a likely response. It's not like anyone would seriously expect that he'd accidentally leave his wife behind when departing for an 11-hour drive. By the way, that should be either a semicolon or period after "moron".

    By the end of the page, in addition to the story question of why Mike and Carol are intentionally sabotaging Brad's marriage, I'm also curious as to what brought Brad on this pilgrimage. I'm pretty sure that he didn't get up before dawn and drive 11 hours one way without air conditioning just to have dinner with an old buddy and his wife. I trust that the reason for the trip is explained reasonably soon.

    Another note for after the first page: I hope that after 11 hours in a car with no air-conditioning, Brad's going to shower and change before having dinner with Diane. :-)

    Pretty good for the romance category, I think, but I'd want to have it be a bit tighter. But then, I'm not your audience.

    Greg

    That’s interesting. Liz, would it be easier to turn the page if you didn’t know Brad was married? If you didn’t find out until page five when Carol asks, “How’s Paula?” would that make it all better? Or would you feel deceived?

    As for the language, I think it’s realistic and about right. A couple of middle-aged guys, life-long friends, both ex-military, no women around, that’s about how they’d talk. When a woman does appear in the scene (Carol or Diane), they clean up their language.

    Greg

    Thanks Doug. Yeah, as I said above, there’s more to the story. Everything is explained: why Brad’s there, why Paula didn’t come with him, why their marriage is on the rocks, why Diane was invited… it all comes out.

    Jean

    As far as Brad being married: From the first section of this page, I'd assumed he was currently single and was being set up with Diane, which would be typicial for a romance. Tossing in the fact that he was already married at the end made me do a double take and read the passage over again to see if I'd misread something.

    If Brad and Diane are going to hook up, maybe introduce it as a social connection first - such as the fellow novelist angle - instead of a blatant hook up. That way we'd have time to be shown that he's married, but its not going well and he's starting to look for someone else in a more sympathetic light. We could still get tension from the fact that Paula wasn't there and maybe a thought or two from Brad on why she wasn't or that he's glad she's not.

    The language didn't bother me as it seemed natural for two men chatting alone.

    Jami G.

    Hi Greg,

    Contemporary romance is not my thing, but I have read them, so I think you can get this to work for that genre.

    Yes, I would take the reference to his wife off the first page. Don't introduce the character until you can give the explanation along with it. Between their language (which I agree with you is completely realistic and appropriate - i.e. I didn't even notice it until the other commenter pointed it out :) ) and the wife thing, it veers the characters toward unsympathetic.

    In the romance genre, it's okay to have characters *seem* like jerks, but only when it's *not* in their POV. When it's in their POV, they should be sympathetic. IMHO, of course. :) In other words, what makes romance characters *seem* unsympathetic is that the POV characters (and the reader) don't know the motivations behind the non-POV character's actions. But in reality, the characters have to be sympathetic. Does that make sense?

    So, no, I wouldn't feel deceived if the wife thing came out later, as long as the explanation (the reader understanding the motivations surrounding the situation) came at the same time. By that time, the reader would be on Brad's side and would think 'Yeah, thank goodness he didn't bring her. She sounds like a b*tch.' :)

    In response to the one commenter pointing out the comma splice in the dialogue, I try not to worry about these types of things in dialogue because that's how people normally speak. So I think it's okay if dialogue contains comma splices and fragments as long as the rhythm sounds right.

    All that said, I agree with Ray's suggestions for more internal monologue and snippets of backstory. But I think you've got a great start here.

    Greg

    Hmmm. 'Tis a sticky wicket. The fact that Brad is married is crucial to the story. Otherwise, it's just a reunion of a couple high school sweethearts --- cute and cuddly but, yawn. And Brad's not a jerk, nor is he out to cheat on his wife. Nor, for that matter, are Mike and Carol trying to set him up. After all, Brad knows Diane better than they do, or at least used to. Further, Diane's brother, Eric, was once Brad and Mike's best friend. At one time these people were all very close. And Brad, Mike and Carol still are.

    Thus, to avoid the issue of Brad's marriage on page one, in my mind, both cheats the reader out of a valuable and pertinent piece of information, and excludes the tension and story questions that it raises.

    And Paula, Brad's wife, isn't the issue. She's not the wicked witch of the west and there is no particular animosity between them. They have simply lost interest in one another. It happens. But, for now, they're still married, which complicates matters.

    All of that (and more) comes out within the next three pages --- it's just a matter of getting the reader to it. And, as a reminder, this is a short story. The whole thing is just 6,500 words.

    John

    I think you're going overboard with all the beats in the dialogue. There's only two people in the scene so some quick back and forth with a minimum of beats (which come across as unnecessary substitutions for the standard 'he said') would probably help the scene flow better.

    It's the questions such as 'huh?' and 'her, who?' in the dialogue that cause the redundancy--preceded by the beats: Brad chugged; then nodded; Mike choked; Mike glanced; Brad's eyebrow went up; Mike gave him a grin; Mike smiled and nodded; Brad's knees wobbled . . .

    The overall effect, for me, was a singsong, predictable cadence that got old quick and made me think there would be a lot more of it throughout the story. I'm not saying cut out the beats entirely, just that they would have a more positive effect if used sparingly and where really needed.

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