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    « Flogometer for Mark—will you turn the page? | Main | Flogometer for Phillip: would you turn the page? »

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    hope101

    Aside from the craft issues Ray has detailed, I prefer the first version for several reasons:

    --the eerie physical description of the cybernetic priest, rather than telling us he is one
    --the backstory slipped in the second one pulls me out of the drama of the story
    --the casual arrangement of the bullets in the second one was jarring, particularly considering this was meant to sound like a ritualized rite of passage

    What I'd keep from the second one: "signalled silence with a sharp cut of his hands"

    Also, besides the inability to perform the movements with the gun in one motion, I'd suggest you don't undercut the drama of the moment. The movements can be polished and unhesitating, but lengthening that passage by just a few words might help to up the tension.

    Hope that helps.

    Kami

    I suspect that I'm not the target audience for this, so minimize my comments appropriately.

    Jafar made me think Disney's Aladdin. That's unfair, but it is what it is, and then the plastic skin hopped me into animation-movieland again and I thought this must be a Roger Rabbit-type story. I'm probably the only one who will read it like that, but I thought you ought to be aware of it.

    Both versions seemed to have excessive weight and drama. Lots of Capitalized Things of Importance and stylized action. Again, this may be just what some readers really want, and they'll find it cool. For me, with the hints of middle eastern stuff, real life intrudes and I'd be looking for more characterization in the Patriarch as a real person with real desires that connect with the extremely rich and fertile ground of middle eastern history, politics, culture, etc. To me he sounded as much of a machine as Jafar, and just as unreal. And God, really? Not Allah?

    Lastly, apparently Luddites are used as bad guys in a number of places, including the MMORPG City of Villains, Doctor Who, and in some literature. I'm getting the sneaking suspicion this might be based on a game? They were originally a very British movement, so I'm not sure what they're doing here ...

    I hope this helps.

    Aimee Laine

    Like Kami -- I'm probably not your audience, but I much preferred the first version. It left mroe to the imagination. :)

    Darla

    I liked the first one best, but there were issues with both that make me vote no. I did like the surpise of them not being human, but I was very confused about the muzzles protruding from his sleeves. I thought he had prosthetic hands?

    I also admit my first though upon reading 'Jafar' was Disney's Aladdin.

    The second one was too distant from either character to draw me in.

    Jessica

    I really liked the second version. I thought it read cleanly and I'd have definitely turned the page. I loved the idea of a cybernetic battle-priest. I thought the world was very well described, and the opening scene was exciting.

    However, I stumbled over the name "Jafar," because I kept picturing the bad guy from Disney's "Aladdin." I also had a hard time taking seriously the idea of a movement called "the Luddite Inquisition."

    Eden Tyler

    Starting with actual dialogue (i.e. action) in the first sentence changed it for me completely. Never mind the rest of the revised version (which is better than the original), that in itself hooked me.
    Telling is, of course, necessary, but to have action right away makes for a more compelling intro. The whole thing flowed better, leading me to vote 'yes' on the revision, and 'no' on the second posted version.

    It's quite interesting. I truly would like to read on.
    Of course, Ray is right as far as clarity, but that's a simple fix--especially after having been pointed out.

    Good luck with this!
    -Eden*

    Derek

    Hi folks, thanks very much for the feedback! :)

    The revised version was consciously written to do many of the things that were pointed out, such as immediate action, show not tell, etc. There was some disagreement among my readers as to which was better, but I will follow the majority here and use the first post, with modifications.

    Some specific points.

    The name Jafar: I'm not sure what to think of this. Jafar is the name of a companion of Mohammed, and as such is as common in the Muslim world as John or Mark is in the Christian world. That many people associate it with a character in a Disney movie tends to reflect our unfamiliarity with Muslim culture. Should I bow to this cultural chauvinism, or just ignore it? I like the name Jafar, it is short and easy to pronounce. It rolls off the tongue. Jafar also is the name of a villain, which seems good. The name is memorable. Thoughts?

    Target Audience: I am specifically aiming this novel towards teen boys and YA/adult crossover. It also draws strongly from the Transhumanist and New Atheist movements. Does knowing the target market affect the reading?

    The Guns Under the Sleeves: Apparently I need to fix this passage. Jafar's arms are clearly described on the next few pages, but in short he has prosthetic "robot" arms with machine guns running along the top of his fore arms, with the barrel sticking out of the sleeve above his wrist. Apparently I didn't convey that very well for a first reading?

    Backstory Questions: Kami and others raised issues of backstory, such as questioning use of God or Luddite. There are backstory reasons why they are blending Muslim and Christian and Luddite ideas. Yet introducing backstory early on kills the flow, as most seem to agree in the second version. To what degree is this reader desire for backstory to be accommodated, and to what degree is it a sign that they are being hooked by questions that will drive them to read on? My impulse is to say, "have patience, all will be revealed in due course!" :)

    Thanks for all the feedback! It has given me lots to consider, and lots to work on I see.
    - Derek

    Kami

    Jafar is the name of a companion of Mohammed, and as such is as common in the Muslim world as John or Mark is in the Christian world. That many people associate it with a character in a Disney movie tends to reflect our unfamiliarity with Muslim culture. Should I bow to this cultural chauvinism, or just ignore it? I like the name Jafar, it is short and easy to pronounce. It rolls off the tongue. Jafar also is the name of a villain, which seems good. The name is memorable. Thoughts?

    My thought is that you can't have your cake and eat it too. Yes Jafar is a common middle eastern name--and you're making him into a villian. So, people who *are* familiar with middle eastern culture will say oh great, another American writing middle eastern people as evil villains. To add insult to injury, he's not even human with real goals and desires, but a machine. And to people who are not familiar with middle eastern culture, they will think the Disney villain. Lose lose.

    For a world that is radically different I strongly suggest you start with the heroes, not with the villains. The hero's pov will be able to fill us in with what s/he is up against very efficiently. Also, if there are surprises for the heroes, the readers can be along for the surprise. "What?" says the hero, "I thought they were Muslim, but here are all these references to God, and what's this about Luddites?" Readers will have all the patience in the world with a story unfolding. It's very, very tough to dump them into a world where the rules are all turned around. I write fantasy--I feel your pain! It's just going to require some thinking and planning. You can hook the reader starting just about anywhere, but the number of places you can start without confusing the reader are much more limited.

    Terri

    Interesting premise, not easy to pull off.

    A few observations, opinion only.

    I have to agree with the folks on Jafar. Yes, it is a common name and a perfectly acceptable one, but once Disney has been there and done that, it is linked with the House of Mouse. I now can't read your paragraphs without seeing the movie character, not what you want.

    I've told the same thing to other fantasy writers when they used a common trope, but one that has been thoroughly integrated into another world, such as comics. Come up with something original - that one's been used.

    You are also on some shakey ground with Luddite. It has become a cultural joke for people who don't like technology. I personally am a FAX machine Luddite, can't get the darn things to work, no matter what. It sounds like your warrior priest is pretty high tech with his assault rifle arms, it seems contradictory.

    Perfectly legitimate reference, just be aware that you may not get the reaction you want.

    One last cultural nitpick, in the same vein. This is a peeve of mine, using modern day cultural references as descriptive of a fantasy world. It yanks me out of the story and back into the world.

    Is this set on modern day Earth? One with department stores? If not, then reconsider your use of the word mannequin. Even though they've been around as long as there have been tailors, it has a specific modern cultural reference - department stores.

    Consider something more generic, like 'doll'. That is a universal concept, it is not unbelievable that any culture in any time, place, or universe would have developed dolls.

    Something like "his molded arms had the deceptive smoothness of a doll." You now know know his arms are prosthetic, sort of fake looking, and that he is probably not a nice and peaceful soul.

    Same thing as the others, know your guns (cylinder vs. magazine). I'd drop the reference to the guns on the arms at this stage. It takes a lot of description to get it right and they aren't germane to the scene. We know his arms are fake. We can find out about the forearm guns later.

    Cool tale!

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