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    « Flogometer for Carolyn: would you keep reading? | Main | Flogometer for Jennifer: would you keep reading? »

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    mai

    So here I am, learning again... I'm one who would have turned the page, Ray. I was amazed at how much your editing approach tightened up this already gripping story, making it sizzle. Your discussion of Bob's opening helps me see my own tendency to overwrite much more clearly. I really liked your expression "learn to boil out the fat when an intense action scene is being played out."

    Stu

    In recent days I have subscribed to Publisher's Lunch and while exploring the various links I happened to click on yours and was very impressed by your comments and adjustments to the narrative, it was a remarkable improvement. I have two (novels) queries to submit and I am certainly going to have another look with your perspective (at least as best I can). Thank you for the opportunity of reading your very useful observations.

    Regards

    Stu

    cheyan

    I wouldn't have kept reading not for any style reason (though the "fireworks were outlawed" sentence felt clunky) but because the description of the gunfire didn't feel right. Gunfire that sounds like firecrackers to the untrained ear immediately suggests .22 to me, because I go target shooting with a .22 pistol and through my ear protection it DOES sound like firecrackers. But the description of the two wounded police officers makes it sound like something heavier was being used, and I can't imagine a machine gun chambered in .22... and I'd expect someone totally unfamiliar with the sound of gunfire to think "what's that loud noise?", not "oh, silly kids and their firecrackers", unless they were the kind of person to go for the most positive possibility at all times (a "What, all my neighbors died last night? Why, I must have moved into a neighborhood full of terminally ill people who actually looked quite healthy until the day they died!" kind of person.)

    This is something I can see being a problem in general - an agent whose daughter is a professional underwater basketweaver would probably not keep reading a story where underwater basketweavers never needed an air source or had candles lit in their underwater crafting pools, right? - so I'm offering that point of view just in case it's helpful :)

    (not an agent, not an editor, not a published author)

    Bob

    Thanks to all, and especially to Ray for his extremely candid critique.

    I've beem dealing with this manuscript for several years now, and it's been read -- partial and full -- by a number of well-known agents. Of course, their replies have been predominately "I didn't fall in love with it." Interestingly most have praised the writing but found the topic not to their liking. Of course they can't take the time to edit the manuscript, and Ray is 100 percent correct in that editors and agents want a book 100 percent ready for publication. This makes it much more difficult on an unpublished fiction writer.

    I've had four nonfiction books published -- mostly true crime -- by major houses, but haven't been able to land the first fiction contract. I quit writing nonfiction ten years ago to concentrate on fiction.

    This book has been through a week-long workshop with a well-known writer (who didn't critique the writing but concentrated on the plot), the opening has been edited by a successful mid-list author, the complete manuscript rewritten four times. It is currently with a well-known agent.

    Your comments will be very helpful Ray. I'll go back once more and look at tightening it even more. I do admit to a real problem with POV. The first draft was all over the place. I spent decades as a journalist and POV was never anything I would worry about; just the facts, ma'm.

    Now that I've had your helpful insight, it may be the answer to the questions -- of why the agents don't fall in love with it -- may be the writing.

    I've gone into this detail to help other writers out there.

    I'd love to hear more feedback from fellow writers.

    TMM

    This could be a matter of personal taste, and it's (sort of) in opposition to Ray's 'trim the fat'- which I do, actually, agree with. But in case you want another perspective, here it is... While jumping right in with the action is good advice, I could almost 'feel' you wanting to tell us a bit more to make this event more significant, or more jarring - and that might be the reason for your 'overwriting'.

    The action should happen fast. But a couple of spare but very vivid sentences describing the atmosphere just before and after the gunshots would do a lot to suck me into the scene more. Something to set me up in a calm/serene mindset, and then something to illustrate the pandemonium that ensues. That's my two cents. =)

    Carla

    I agree, TMM.
    I almost want a sentence or two strolling through San Antonio and the fair etc..
    BTW I LOVE that town!
    Also, for what it's worth THE CAPS on his name bugged me, and I tripped over the pronunciation to boot. Making me trip one second into the story turned me off. But that's just me.
    I like the opening idea, though.

    Ing

    I'm another one who would have kept reading. There's a lot to like about this piece.

    I also agree with Ray's edits, though. Much tighter afterward. I found the POV edits interesting, especially after the conversation a few days ago. POV is not something I had ever thought much about before (unless it was terribly disorienting, in which case it was hard not to notice), but I'm starting to see it a bit better.

    The one big question I had was about "Nacho." I assume the second officer is shouting the name of the first officer who was shot, but it just threw me--for a second I wasn't sure who was shouting it, and then I wondered why someone would be called Nacho.

    I think that editing along the lines Ray suggests would really make this story sing--it could be the type of thing that more than just getting readers interested, grabs them by the shirt-front and pulls them in.

    Bob

    Again, thanks to all for your comments. I hope to get even more.

    To answer a couple of questions:

    TMM I had another reader suggest a more gentle opening into the piece and I discarded the idea because it would take more than a sentence or two to set a serenity scene and in my personal tastes I like a story that whisks you right into it. However I will now take another look at it and noodle on the idea of perhaps a few graphs setting the scene of happy parade goers before getting into the action. By the way, this opening is based on a true incident at the Battle of Flowers that I covered for the San Antonio Light, and my son was one of the band members standing there with the drugged-up killer started shooting; however, it wasn't a teen or occult figure. So, thanks for the suggestion. We need all the help we can get.

    ING: Nacho is the nickname for Ignacio as Beto is the nickname for Roberto. I thought that the man would call his partner's name when going to help him. Perhaps I was wrong; apparently so if it causes you to pause and not continue.


    CHEYAN: I have to say that it sounded like pops to me when I covered the real event for my newspaper. Of course, I'm not an expert on this topic, so I'll reconsider the sounds. When the police moved in to kill the murderer I was hiding behind a cement pillar a few feet away and it sounded like pops. Thanks for your input.

    CARLA: Thanks for your input on the caps. It's just a device I've seen in published novels -- to start the first few words of a chapter in caps -- and nothing I'm married to. Oeding, however, I'm married to since it's a family name I wanted to use. If it turns out to be trouble, then I will divorice it. It is troublesome to me that you stumbled twice on the first few words.

    Again, thanks to all; and Carla, I, too, love this city that's why two completed novels and a work in progress is set here.

    Carla

    Isn't this site the best!- so many helpful eyes and suggestions. It helped me so much, I had a request for a full right after the clean-up!

    The caps probably tripped me more than the name, however if the pov changes, you would introduce the full name later thru some other character, I think. He wouln't think of his full name in his pov. "He" or "Luke" would be used.

    GOOD LUCK! It's great to build on a true story.

    Ray

    Bob, I would resist adding a few "paragraphs" of happy parade goers before getting into this striking action. If you do add to the scene-setting, try to keep some tension in the mood, perhaps with a little foreshadowing. For example:

    Pop-pop-pop. The gunshots sounded like firecrackers to Luke Oeding, barely heard above the approaching high-school band that led the Battle of Flowers Parade. Trumpets blared, and springtime San Antonia sunshine flared off a tuba that looked too large for the marcher. A woman next to him lifted her little boy for a better look--

    Pop! Pop! Pop . . . pop . . . the chest of a hefty traffic officer ripped open. He pitched backward and sprawled, unmoving.

    That's just a quick look at it. Using "gunshots" right up front foreshadows and creates tension that gets you through the following description.

    For what it's worth,

    Ray

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