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    « Flogometer: interesting mood, but craft problems called a halt | Main | Flogometer: would you keep reading? »

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    Jessica

    I, too was intrigued by the setup. And the idea that she was marrying someone other than the protagonist? I'd definitely have read more. I thought the setting was evocatively rendered and the writing read very cleanly.

    Ray, how would you distinguish the dreaded head-hopping from third person omniscient POV? There seems to be a fine line, and, for me, anyway, I'd draw that line at the point where the POV switch jars me, personally. But that's a very subjective measure. Is it, perhaps, a matter of focus? Wide-angle lens vs. close-up?

    TonyB

    I too was intrigued by this idea of a jarring switch in perspective. To be honest I didn't find it particularly bad in the quoted example.

    The subject of point of view is fascinating - perhaps Ray could talk more on the subject, or point us to a previous article?

    Surely the main purpose of using a third person perspective is that the writer can peer into everyone's head and give us their feelings?

    I take the point that it's a question of degree (I like the lens analogy above!). If you're describing the minutiae of someone's behaviour and feelings and then jump to describing another character in a similarly intimate way maybe that's the 'jump cut' that should be avoided (to continue the film metaphor)?

    Great site by the way, I'm learning so much about writing by studying these regular public floggings.

    Ray Rhamey

    This topic may be too large for a comment venue, but here are some quick thoughts.

    First, it's a very subjective thing. It bothered me, it didn't bother Jessica or Tony.

    From a technique point of view, for omniscience/third-person omniscient to be effective and avoid jarring hops it needs to be more distant than a third-person limited pov where you get into a character's head and help the reader experience his experience.

    I jumped to Wikipedia and a couple of other sites to survey this topic, and here are some quotes:

    From Wikipedia: "a point of view is the related experience of the narrator — not that of the author. Authors rarely, in fiction, insert or inject their own voice, as this challenges the suspension of disbelief."

    That's where I think this is a weaker technique in terms of storytelling.

    From another site, "An entire book written with the omniscient point of view does not allow the reader to identify with any one character or know whose story you are telling."

    Virginia Woolf did the omniscient point of view very well, but there's wonderful, smooth transitional material that takes you from one pov to another. In Ric's sample, the first three paragraphs were very much in Tilman's point of view--we see Lynn through his eyes/mind. Then there's a line of dialogue, then suddenly we're hearing about Lynn's urge to go out the door.

    This is clearly author intervention, and it pulled me out of the story. I once read a quote by a professor at the Warren Wilson MFA in creative writing program--he was a multi-published writer and teacher, and he said that it wasn't until he was in his 40s that he felt competent enough to attempt omniscience--and he wasn't all that sure about it even then.

    If it's deliberately employed as a technique, there's nothing wrong with using the omniscient pov. But you pay the price of distance, of loss of emotion. It's closer to telling than showing. And if not well done, as in today's example, it can be jarring.

    The omniscient point of view was once the most common technique. Again from Wikipedia:

    "Historically, the "third person omniscient" perspective was more common. This is the tale told from the point of view of the storyteller who knows all the facts. The primary advantage is that it injected the narrator's own perspective and reputation into the story, creating a greater sense of objectivity for the story. The disadvantage of this mode is that it creates more distance between the reader and the story. Third person limited became the most popular narrative perspective during the twentieth century."

    I believe that if you read today's best-selling authors, you'll find little use of the omniscient point of view. I, among others, do use different points of view in a novel, but the way to keep your reader involved (IMO) is to either switch pov only when moving from one chapter to another or, if within a chapter, with clear transitions (and a break) between characters, not the slam of moving between paragraphs in the middle of a scene. That's my view, anyway.

    Ray

    Ing

    Interesting conversation!

    I'm not against a bit of judicious "head-hopping" in a novel, but I'm with Ray on this one. The perspective shift stopped me cold, too--I think because I hadn't had time to fully get the feel of Tilman's perspective before getting spun 180 degrees.

    A thought on the grass-stain accuracy issue:

    The hem turning green is a nice visual, and I like it a lot. Maybe you could keep it by specifying fresh-cut grass. In my experience, heavy clippings on a fresh-cut lawn can stain very quickly, and might do something much as you described if (say) a heavy wedding-dress hem were dragged across.

    I'm really intrigued by the "but you're still getting married" bit Ray brought up. Finding that in the opening page of a novel would probably hook me good.

    Not that my opinion holds much weight, but I see a lot of potential in Rik's submission. It's something I could be interested in reading further.

    Rik

    I'll have to work on the head hopping. My wife informed me that there are a handful of other places in the story that it occurs. This was the first time any part of the story has been read by anyone outside of the family. Thanks for all the advice, now time for more editing.

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